PACWIND Vertical Axis Wind Turbines

[mastroton]

Hy

Does anybody have any experience of these wind turbine generator
(see http://www.pacwind.net/#delta1 ) and have an idea of their cost, specially the DELTA-1 one.

I'm also inquiring about their installation and its dump-load fitting
( see http://www.pacwind.net/images/install.jpg). How is the actual circuit schema and connections ?

thks 4 your help
jacques


(by the way to the admin, how could it be possible to reopen the old account of the previous forum)
bye

[BB.]

If you get detailed information on their products--let us know. To date, their website has not had data sheets for their newer products.

By the way, if you are thinking of using them, get a wind vs output power (current) against various battery bank voltages.

Looking at one of their older models, it appeared that as one increased the output voltage requirements (12v, 24v, 48v, etc.), the base wind speed when it would generate any significant power also went up dramatically.

Also, it was not clear what their true power output was (appeared it would output battery bank voltage, but the maximum current listed did not match the maximum power output ratings -- P=V*I).

-Bill

PS: Listening the the Ed Bagley video... 2kW unit, $4,000 or $2 per Watt, 10 year warranty (5 year listed on website), 48VDC output... Video had a 500 watt rated turbine in his background (Sea Hawk model?). Starts generating at 3-7 knots...

From the manual of the older units, it required a diversion charge controller (monitors battery voltage and once battery reaches set point, the unit passes current to an electric resistance heater (either waste heat, or heating hot water, etc.). Normally, two separate charge controllers are required for wind systems to prevent one point of failure overcharging the batteries--or for units that over speed without load (need diversion controller to provide energy sink to limit speed--don't know if Pac-Wind needs two controllers or not).

Here is the Sea Hawk Manual...

Notice, from the manual (same system that Mr. Bagley was talking about on his home):

The rotor of the SeaHawk should begin to rotate when the wind speed reaches approximately 1.8 m/s 4 mph. Battery charging will commence on a 12 Volt battery system at about 3.1 m/s (7 mph), on a 24 Volt battery system at about 5.4 m/s (12 mph) and on a 48 Volt battery system at about 10.8 m/s (24 mph).
...
All operational wind speeds given assume steady winds, sea-level altitude and moderate temperatures. Hot weather, high altitude, turbulence, and gusting winds will reduce system performance. The rotor speed will increase with increasing wind speed and the system will provide a higher output. This output increases rapidly because the energy available in the wind varies as the third power (cube) of the wind speed. For example, if the wind speed doubles from 5 m/s (11.2 mph) to 10 m/s (22.4 m/s), the energy in the wind increases by a factor of eight (23 = 2 x 2 x 2 = . One result of this relationship is that there is very little energy available in light winds.

For the average site, winds in the range of 5.5 – 9 m/s (12 – 20 mph) will provide most of the system’s annual energy production.

B. High Winds

The SeaHawk VAWT performs extremely well under high wind conditions. Since there is no need to protect itself as do propeller based systems, the SeaHawk simply cannot spin any faster at above about 42.75 m/s (95 mph). The SeaHawk just appears as wind loading at that point and the wind simply goes around the SeaHawk as it is putting out full power. The SeaHawk puts out maximum power at about 27 m/s (60 mph).
...
The SeaHawk wind turbine must be placed on a tower that is tall enough to give the cage proper exposure to the wind. Putting a wind turbine on a tower that is too short is like installing a solar system in the shade. As a “rule-of-thumb” the SeaHawk should be 9 m (30 ft) above obstacles within 50 m (160 ft), particularly in the prevailing wind direction. So, the minimum recommended tower height is 9 m (30 ft.). For most situations, a tower of at least 18 m (60 ft.) is recommended for this unit.

Read through the manual, and you can probably answer most of your basic questions and better able to talk with Pac-Wind about their new products.

My issue with them (yes, I have "issues") is that the video does not match their own manual (cannot mount on roof where a little girl can get into the rotors, cannot generate power at 48VDC in low wind conditions, need a tower 30's above obstructions and should be 60' minimum).

Using their own wind map links, Los Angles CA. is shown to be mostly Class 1 (lowest wind speed). Most commercial wind power is looking for Class 3 regions. There is no possible way (in my humble opinion) that mounting this things on telephone poles and homeowners' roofs throughout the LA basin is going to generate significant amounts of power based on the configuration discussed in the video (48 VDC grid tied systems)...

-BB

[mastroton]

thks BB

As I have a 8 m hight tower with a 9m2 flat roof, all my solar and batteries installation just underneath, I thought to opt for a vertical axis WT for the tower. I know they are a little bit more expensive than the other ones, but here in Spain where I live we benefit dayly during 6 to 8 hours of a 5m/s to 7m/s Solar wind from the sea. The other insterest in such Wind Turbines is that they need a weaker wind to start. Do you know a good Vertical Axis Turbine which could meet these points ?

bye jacques

[BB.]

I am sorry, I don't really have that much information on wind-turbine brands other than what I have read on here and a few other places.

I would suggest that you look around your area for people with wind installations and see what they have had success with and which brands have good support for your location. Wind Turbines can need parts/service and if there is no local distribution for a manufacturer in your region--it could be long/expensive waits for support.

Lastly, wind power goes with the cube (as I remember) of the wind speed. Slow winds have very little power in them--and it would require a very large wind turbine (blade area) for any turbine to generate power at low wind velocities (if I remember correctly, the amount of power you can gather from wind--it increases with the square of the blade diameter). The type of turbine (vertical or horizontal) is not going make a large difference in capacity--just physical size.

Choosing vertical or horizontal turbines would probably be more on costs, noise, maximum wind speeds (wind turbines can self destruct in high winds). And check the amount of power the units would generate in your wind with your battery bank (like the issue with the SeaHawk not able to generate any useful power for a 48 VDC bank at your nominal wind speeds).

My only experience has been watching our local wind farms in our area. A couple of decades ago, I have seen several types of vertical turbines deployed--and they did not stay up long--a few years at most (in the small area visible from the freeway). They were replaced with standard large (huge) horizontal turbines. I have a feeling that it is mechanically easier (less material, cheaper) to build huge diameter 3-bladed turbines than the vertical types.

-Bill

[mastroton]

lot of thanks bill
y're right considering the cost of each watt produced. But it seems this kind of generator is a bit in many developing areas.

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/vert...d_turbines.htm

jacques

[BB.]

I went through about 1/2 the links on the vertical turbine wind page--and found, probably few had any products currently for sale in the home size arena.

And I looked for data on their performance, and found very little published.

But, I did find Windside has some published data for their VWT systems... And I compared that to a small Bergy horizontal wind turbine spec sheet.

The Windside 4C model (440 peak watt?) was rated at 4m^2 swept area, the Bergy 1kW model runs out to about 5m^2 swept area.

The Bergy at 11m/s outputs 1kW, the Windside at 10m/s outputs 400watts...

It seems that all things being equal (which they rarely are), that a standard 3 bladed HWT will generate about 2x the power from a similar "swept" area VWT--and, to me, that makes sense.

For a HWT, the blades are always facing the wind during the entire 360 degrees of their rotation. For every HWT I have seen (IMHO), the blades/buckets/scoops/etc. only are facing the wind for 180 degrees of revolution.

One other site (Dutch?) had a listing for a 3kW peak turbine--the thing was pretty big and cost 25,000 Euros (plus 10-15,000 for mast/installation)... Probaby (my 3kW of solar grid tie was less money).

Also, I looked at all of the "house/roof" mounted units. They claim VWT are appropriate for mounting on roofs because turbulent wind does not hurt the output because of the non-directional nature of the VWT...

But all I saw (excluding Pac-Wind) appeared to be photoshopped mechanical models on a home or 1/8'th scale models. Nothing that appeared to be selling/installing in any sort of volume.

And, as I have listed before, I don't like the Pac-Wind sales material (and I see similar material from the other VWT manufacturers). Wonderful descriptions of a wind turbine on every home, no matter the location, average wind speeds, elevation above obstructions--and pictures of installations that should never be made and videos of turbine hardly turning (and generating, if even that, enough power to light a single LED) as examples of "wind power".

If you live in a windy location and don't have a lot of sun--many of these systems make sense... But they are not magic bullets for solving electric power in downtown Los Angles. And there are advantages and disadvantages with different turbine types and models/manufacturers--you have to pick the one that work best for you and your area.

Take a look at Wind-Sun's wind generator sales page--I like that they are honest what to expect:

A note about wind generator power ratings.

All wind generators (from all manufacturers) have somewhat "generous" ratings, as the power output is usually specified as the MAXIMUM output. In real life in most cases you will be lucky to get even half of that. Also, most people tend to over-estimate how much wind they actually get. Most wind generators require winds in the 15 to 25 MPH range - and 25 MPH is Beaufort 6 - the stage where the wind starts to "whistle" on wires and structures.

They also have a hot link to Wunderground current wind map page... Just clicked on it, and there is very little wind in the US (on average) right now.

And for fun, I clicked on the UV forecast (as a analog for solar irradiance), and it shows much of the available solar energy available is in the South West. You can try similar views with visibility, visible satellite, etc. for fun.

I also ran across Bergy Excel spreadsheets that allows you to plug in numbers for your average wind conditions and generate annual output estimates for their wind turbines.

-Bill

[mastroton]

thanks a lot bill: I have all the winter time coming to make up my mind
bye
jacques

[BB.]

Jacques,

Please let us know what you find!

While I live in an area where I cannot use wind power (city area with low winds)--I am sure there are many that can use your collected wisdom and others, like me, just enjoy the learning experience.

And, don't get hung up on how low a speed when a turbine begins to spin. Get an actual chart/data set that gives performance numbers that you can plug into a spread sheet (like the Bergy example). There is little energy in low speed wind and "just turning" gives out little useful power.

-Bill